Debates

[hellomeow]

Debates do not need to be formal, they should just look that way.

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Instrinsic and Extrinsic Values and Metaphysical vs Physical Understandings of Organisms

Participants: Michael Mohamed of Brampton Centennial Secondary School (BCSS) and Kevin Yeung of York University Grand Intellectuals of Order and Harmony (YUGIOH or 遊戯王)

(06:33:25 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Hiya.
(06:34:38 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: hello, how may I help you today?
(06:34:51 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Hmm... I just wanted to talk.
(06:35:11 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: lol, I dont have much to talk about though
(06:36:19 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Do you not want to talk with me?
(06:36:29 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: no, I didnt say that
(06:36:44 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: but I cant think of topics to talk about
(06:36:54 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Well, do you like computers at all?
(06:37:06 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Define liking computers
(06:37:12 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: like programming?
(06:37:23 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: No, not necessarily that kind of thing.
(06:37:26 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Just hardward.
(06:37:29 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: *hardware.
(06:37:55 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Or various software and operating systems you might like, or say certain games or keyboards you life.
(06:37:57 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: *like.
(06:38:00 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: i dont have the money to keep up the latest hardware unfortunately
(06:38:10 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Oh, what kind of computer do you have right now?
(06:38:29 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: 3.0ghz and Nvidia 5200
(06:38:38 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: 3.0 non dual core
(06:38:42 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Wow... that is a lot better than mine.
(06:38:50 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It's a Pentium?
(06:38:55 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: yeah p4
(06:39:07 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Oh, I see. What about the RAM?
(06:39:09 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt just sent you a Nudge!
(06:39:12 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: woops
(06:39:12 PM) You have just sent a Nudge!
(06:39:35 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: 786 m of ram
(06:39:44 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Oh, that is not so great :/
(06:39:57 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Still the clock speed seems pretty sweet if that is the case.
(06:40:12 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Do you overclock it or something like that?
(06:40:15 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: nope
(06:40:16 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: How much hard drive memory?
(06:40:26 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: around 300 gigs right now
(06:40:31 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Gigahertz, you're measuring?
(06:40:34 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Wow...
(06:40:42 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: That's much better than mine.
(06:40:58 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: hard drive?
(06:41:03 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: And the processor.
(06:41:08 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: 3.0 ghz
(06:41:12 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Yeah.
(06:41:24 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Mine is like 1.7Ghz.
(06:41:30 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: I see
(06:41:53 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: I only recently got it upgraded
(06:41:56 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: from 800 mhz
(06:42:13 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Actually, it says it is 1598Mhz... rofl.
(06:42:20 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: lol
(06:42:24 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: That is 47*17*2
(06:42:32 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: it is never exactly the same
(06:42:39 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Nope, rarely is.
(06:43:00 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: I just noticed the time.
(06:43:13 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: 6:45?
(06:43:14 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: 6:42:20 it says on one of your messages.
(06:43:33 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: And it makes me thing of 2*19*13^2
(06:43:43 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: 645 is just 43*3*5
(06:43:59 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It could be 1843 according to mine.
(06:44:03 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: This is a good number.
(06:44:04 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: You are confusing me at this point
(06:44:10 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It is 97*19
(06:44:14 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: How?
(06:44:26 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: you are throwing a bunch of numbers with no meaning
(06:44:32 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What do you mean?
(06:44:33 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: it isnt very practical
(06:44:38 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: They do mean something.
(06:44:45 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: 97*19 means 1843
(06:44:56 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and what can you do with 1843?
(06:45:09 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It was the time in minutes two minutes ago.
(06:45:20 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and what does that signify?
(06:45:26 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What time it is.
(06:45:48 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Oh.
(06:45:54 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: You use the time in 12h?
(06:45:56 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: The time two minutes ago is irrelevent to my interests, neither is throwing numbers out at random
(06:46:27 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: I agree that your number crunching skills are impressive
(06:46:46 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: but it doesnt mean anything to me
(06:47:44 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It doesn't make sense that they are random.
(06:47:56 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: The time 4 minutes ago is not random.
(06:48:08 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: no, not because of random
(06:48:11 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Neither are the numbers that form its product.
(06:48:15 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: because they lack real meaning
(06:48:28 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What is real meaning? Aren't numbers meaningful?
(06:48:34 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: not reallt
(06:49:03 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: how would tell two numbers x another = number
(06:49:06 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: They are the primary laws that give balance to the entire structure of the universe as we know it.
(06:49:15 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: oh really?
(06:49:27 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Can you calculate what I will say next?
(06:49:35 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: using just pure numbers
(06:49:44 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Yeah, how else would you be able to understand the physical world around us if it were not governed by mathematics.
(06:50:12 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Mathematics so far hasn't extending to be able to predict the future, but we never know what could happen.
(06:50:26 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: The future could possibly be predicted by mathematics alone.
(06:50:34 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: The world's phenomenon cannot be broken into numbers
(06:50:52 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: if you try, the holistic view is lost
(06:51:01 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and it would cease have real meaning
(06:52:39 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: A lot of neurology, with are definitely used in speaking are governed by of mathematical laws. Many of them follow simple circuitry laws, and laws of electric dispersal through central nervous nerves and synapses, using using dendrites as receptors for electric charge.
(06:53:01 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: So if you could model that perfectly in some manner, then it would be possible to predict what a person is going to say or do.
(06:53:08 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Just like you can with a computer.
(06:53:41 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: sorry, as a part of the liberal arts field, I fail to see humanity as a computer
(06:53:50 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: you should consider reading Whitehead
(06:53:51 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: We are not computers.
(06:53:59 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: We just bear great similarity to them.
(06:54:08 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: I dont think so
(06:54:10 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: There's a quote by Einstein I like pertaining to it.
(06:54:21 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Einstein means nothing to me
(06:55:31 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Why so?
(06:56:54 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: because I dont study the field of science and physics. The study of physics are great, but it reduces the world into numbers
(06:57:00 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: when it really shouldnt too much
(06:57:21 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Take a flower for example
(06:57:31 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: it has a number of unique quality
(06:57:37 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: like size, shape, and colour
(06:58:06 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: if you can measure it size, and you can measure its shape, and you can assign a number to its hue
(06:58:29 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: but if we do these we only reduce it to mere number
(06:58:37 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and thus the meaning of a flower is lost
(06:58:52 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What would you say the meaning of a flower is?
(06:58:58 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: which is its beauty and value of cultural significance
(06:59:28 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It can indeed be beautiful and culturally significant, but why end your inquisitions and explorations there?
(07:00:17 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: because it makes too complex, and the holistic view is lost
(07:01:24 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: The more numbers you put on an objects
(07:01:37 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: the more meaning of it is lost
(07:02:10 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: in terms of cultural, social values
(07:02:26 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: or to phrase it better
(07:03:07 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: intrinsic values
(07:15:07 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Sorry, computer crashed.
(07:15:56 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Also, why should the fact that you are numbering, measuring and exploring all the you can learn from a flower when you could enjoy it's cultural significance and value while also being able to learn as much about its physical properties as possible.
(07:16:05 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Isn't more learning more meaning?
(07:17:01 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Yes, it give it meaning. But at the same time it could also lose it
(07:17:12 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and that is what the current trend is in science
(07:17:17 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: How so?
(07:17:36 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: How could learning more about something eliminate our knowledge of it?
(07:18:09 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Well, you actually helped proved my point just earlier
(07:18:30 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: when you talked of the human brain, you reduced it to simply a bunch of neurons
(07:18:34 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and nerve endings
(07:18:50 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: But how does that eliminate what it means to us?
(07:19:06 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: We use our brains as the source of our ability to explore and learn in the world around us.
(07:19:24 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: oh, but then you told of predicting people
(07:19:30 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: To be able to love other people, to be able to accomplish whatever it is we wish if we take the best advantage as possible of ours brains.
(07:19:36 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and prediction is always 100%
(07:19:40 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: should be
(07:19:50 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: at least in the scientific sense
(07:19:59 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Isn't it great to be able to know as much as possible?
(07:20:02 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: otherwise, it become anomaly
(07:20:11 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What sort of things would you call anomalies?
(07:20:19 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Human is an anomaly
(07:20:26 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: behaviour is an anomaly
(07:20:29 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Like the Uncertainty principle?
(07:20:40 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: for there are no laws governing it
(07:20:41 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: You can still study and learn as much as you want from it.
(07:21:14 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Like I said earlier, people are essentially in a lot of ways making geographic maps of circuitry and the parts of the brain with allow it to function in one way or another.
(07:21:29 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Not just that, but also the nervous reactions with the brain isn't involved in.
(07:21:35 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: The kind that just take place in your spine.
(07:21:39 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Yes, you can study, but how can you study something, extrinsically and expect to under the intrinsic values involved
(07:21:58 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Then say you "map a person"
(07:22:11 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: does that mean that the person no longer has free will?
(07:22:15 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Generally there is no reason to consider them, but they do add to our understanding of them.
(07:22:49 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: I couldn't offer a meaningful answer to that question, I feel like I want to learn as much as I can to be able to understand free will.
(07:23:02 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Ah, but intrinsic values of objects have much more meaning than the extrinsic value
(07:23:12 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: How so?
(07:23:17 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Why should either mean more than the other?
(07:23:20 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Take a rose
(07:24:03 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: If you gave a fresh rose to someone, versus an exact replicate (to the very last detail) but was plastic
(07:24:13 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: That is not possible.
(07:24:16 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: who would the person like on the other one
(07:24:31 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: You would have to use the exact same material the plant is made out of.
(07:24:43 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: nope, exact rose replicate
(07:24:53 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: meaning it has the same hue
(07:24:55 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: In turn, constructing an exact replica of a rose using the exact materials it is made out of.
(07:24:57 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: same shape
(07:25:06 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: nope, just plastic
(07:25:11 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: But it would need the same material to be the same object.
(07:25:21 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: the texture of course would feel the same
(07:25:26 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: would not
(07:25:30 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: feel the same
(07:25:31 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: That is not a replica. It is not the same as a rose.
(07:25:43 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: replica =/= 100%
(07:25:47 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: It would need the same atomic structure.
(07:25:54 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What is an exact replica then?
(07:26:04 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Meaning it just looks the same on the outside
(07:26:24 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: That would be nothing similar to a flower.
(07:26:28 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: You miss the point of the question
(07:26:42 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: this is what I mean by intrinsic vs extrinsic
(07:26:53 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: A flower is the only object that can have the exact structure and make of itself.
(07:26:55 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: You look the scientific basis of the question
(07:27:02 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and not the cultural meaning of it
(07:27:52 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: A plastic one that simply has a superficial basis would not mean anything compared to the actual rose constructed and grown as it was, under the conditions of it, under the roots with which it gained water, the harvesting and growing by people who lived by it must have given it which it would have had to adapt to.
(07:28:12 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: but which would the person like more?
(07:28:17 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: The real thing.
(07:28:21 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: oh really?
(07:28:23 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Yes.
(07:28:27 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Not so
(07:28:41 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: it really depends on a several factors
(07:29:23 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: but that was not the point of the question
(07:29:48 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: the point of the question was to see whether you would try to break the rose into scientific elements
(07:29:56 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: which you have done
(07:30:39 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Life is not a bunch of 0s and 1
(07:30:40 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: s
(07:30:48 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: So you cared more about how I formed my answer or my understanding of a flower more than what I think of it, how I believe that its significance affects the world as a whole? Why should that prove that I think of the world in such a way?
(07:31:17 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Binary is a very simple way of displaying information, there are various ways available in the world which are employed all the time.
(07:31:31 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: My intention of the question was different
(07:31:43 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What did you intend to learn from the question?
(07:31:53 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Had you answered one or the other
(07:31:56 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: simply
(07:32:03 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: like a fresh one or a plastic one
(07:32:14 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: I would have accepted both
(07:32:46 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: however, you had to "scientifically" say about how a rose is grounded and stuff
(07:33:15 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: and come out with a specific "logical" answer
(07:33:31 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What is wrong with either of those kind of thinking?
(07:33:38 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Didn't I provide a meaning for the rose?
(07:33:52 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Scientifically yes,
(07:34:24 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: How do you view God?
(07:35:32 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: But it affects the entire world, people would help raise roses, people would cut themselves on roses, people would develop writing systems and record stories about roses, people would enjoy gazing at or sniffing roses. They would thrive in certain plains and die in others, they would be a part of their ecosystem, feeding off of nutrients of soil and fertilizing it in their deaths. A true living and breathing organism that we live together with and enjoy the presence of, affecting one and the other.
(07:36:10 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: As for God, I believe that there is no way to give a meaningful answer to either the question of whether God exists, or what we know now can prove God exists or doesn't.
(07:36:42 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: I see
(07:37:16 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: well, I have to say that I am thoroughly impressed by your explanations
(07:37:40 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: At least I know that you are not a human calculator
(07:37:51 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: lol
(07:37:51 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: What made you think I was that?
(07:38:04 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: Throwing random numbers out
(07:38:38 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: They aren't random, they were relevant to our current situation.
(07:38:55 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: At the time, about 56 minutes ago.
(07:39:15 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: fine not random numbers
(07:39:20 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: let me rephrase
(07:41:46 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: "Numbers that confuse the heck out of me, when you suddenly come up with a multiplication formula about what time it is"
(07:42:02 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Heh, alright.
(07:42:15 PM) {x|0≤x<Human}: Did you enjoy the discussion?
(07:42:26 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt: yes, I did
(07:42:27 PM) 幻世虚構 精霊機導弾 Elemental Gearbolt:

__________________________________________________________________________

EDIT: I was pretty stoned when I got into this conversation. I love arguing while stoned, this was a good example of me doing it with a liberal arts major... lmfao

[hellomeow]

Morality of Democracy Vs Dictatorship and Totalitarianism Vs Freedom

Participants: Michael Mohamed of Brampton Centennial Secondary School (BCSS) and Daryl Κlakowsky of Connecticut, USA.

(08:53:25 PM) [e-mail]: Taking to my mother and sister.
(08:53:28 PM) [e-mail]: They are far too forgiving.
(08:53:33 PM) [e-mail]: I don't understand people.
(08:53:54 PM) [e-mail]: You think there's something wrong with killing and destroying people for what you think is right, at least everyone seems to think so.
(08:54:24 PM) [e-mail]: I don't see the wrong in any of it. All I see is the virtue in exterminating evil. The virtue in allowing people to learn.
(08:55:01 PM) Daryl[/b]: Via murder?
(08:55:32 PM) [e-mail]: If murder is the best means to exterminate evil, then so be it.
(08:55:53 PM) Daryl[/b]: I'd say it's a pretty poor way of doing so.
(08:57:03 PM) [e-mail]: Depends on the circumstances.
(08:57:36 PM) Daryl[/b]: Not really
(08:57:41 PM) [e-mail]: People can certainly try to rehabilitate people, but if they can't be rehabilitated, then they deserve to be put away. If they are too dangerous to be put away, then they deserve to be dead.
(08:57:44 PM) Daryl[/b]: Killing people is wrong, no matter who's doing the killing
(08:58:46 PM) [e-mail]: Why?
(08:59:11 PM) Daryl[/b]: Because killing is a morally unjustifiable action.
(08:59:23 PM) [e-mail]: I don't understand morality.
(08:59:36 PM) Daryl[/b]: What aspects of it?
(08:59:47 PM) [e-mail]: All of it I guess.
(09:00:05 PM) Daryl[/b]: You do seem to be pretty morally inept
(09:00:28 PM) [e-mail]: How so?
(09:00:39 PM) Daryl[/b]: For one, you admit that you don't understand morality.
(09:01:22 PM) [e-mail]: Well that's pretty obvious, what else?
(09:01:42 PM) Daryl[/b]: You apply different moral standards to different people
(09:03:05 PM) [e-mail]: I would say my moral standards towards myself differ completely to how I apply them to other peopl.
(09:03:06 PM) [e-mail]: *e
(09:03:18 PM) Daryl[/b]: How so?
(09:08:11 PM) [e-mail]: For example, I never have any problem with people who decide to do nothing with their lives, or people who have no goals. If I was like that, I would be ashamed of myself.
(09:08:31 PM) Daryl[/b]: You consider that a moral point?
(09:09:02 PM) [e-mail]: I'm not sure, but I definitely don't want to have no goals.
(09:09:35 PM) [e-mail]: How are you doing with the Robinson's Puzzle?
(09:09:55 PM) Daryl[/b]: Homework
(09:13:25 PM) Daryl[/b]: Why do you say there is no greater evil than mercy?
(09:14:23 PM) [e-mail]: Because I've yet to see any good come from it for starters, also the fact that the few times I have seen people being granted mercy they invariably learn nothing from it, and only learn how to catch a break from punishment.
(09:14:35 PM) [e-mail]: Punishment helps people to learn, mercy helps people to ignore.
(09:15:17 PM) Daryl[/b]: You can be merciful and punish people at the same time
(09:15:38 PM) [e-mail]: It's better though to just punish.
(09:15:53 PM) Daryl[/b]: I don't think I'd like your world very much.
(09:16:01 PM) [e-mail]: Why not?
(09:16:14 PM) Daryl[/b]: You kill those who you disagree with and refuse to show mercy while doing so
(09:16:25 PM) Daryl[/b]: Sounds too evil
(09:16:34 PM) [e-mail]: I don't think it's evil.
(09:16:40 PM) Daryl[/b]: I do
(09:16:50 PM) [e-mail]: What would your kind of world be like?
(09:17:08 PM) [e-mail]: Also, do you care for me to show you the solution to the Robinson's puzzle?
(09:17:16 PM) [e-mail]: Or at least teach you how to find it?
(09:17:22 PM) Daryl[/b]: My world would be pretty much the exact opposite of yours
(09:17:26 PM) Daryl[/b]: Aand do not tell me the answer
(09:17:53 PM) [e-mail]: Yeah, I don't think I've met anyone who I can say has agreed with me on most points about morality besides Alex Bankuti.
(09:18:26 PM) [e-mail]: That's one thing I like about him, he just gets my way of thinking.
(09:18:28 PM) Daryl[/b]: Perhaps that is indication that you are wrong
(09:18:38 PM) [e-mail]: What's wrong with Alex Bankuti?
(09:18:49 PM) Daryl[/b]: Not the fact that he agrees
(09:18:56 PM) Daryl[/b]: the fact that everyone else disagrees
(09:19:16 PM) [e-mail]: I don't see how that would demonstrate or indicate that I'm wrong.
(09:19:35 PM) [e-mail]: It just indicates that the majority of people disagree with me.
(09:20:03 PM) Daryl[/b]: If a large majority of people think that something is morally wrong, then it probably is
(09:20:23 PM) Daryl[/b]: Say 98% of people think that killingg is amoral
(09:20:26 PM) [e-mail]: I don't think I would kill people I disagree with, just people who impede in my progress.
(09:20:40 PM) Daryl[/b]: If you can really consider that progress.
(09:20:52 PM) [e-mail]: If there are people who I disagree with, I would just make them think the same way I do.
(09:20:55 PM) Daryl[/b]: Would you kill me for attempting to stop your movement?
(09:21:14 PM) [e-mail]: Provided you were large enough a threat, I might. More likely though, I would just force you into working for me.
(09:21:19 PM) [e-mail]: Because you're not useless.
(09:21:28 PM) Daryl[/b]: I would refuse to work for you under any circumstances
(09:22:02 PM) [e-mail]: Anyone can be made to do anything provided the power to manipulate them is powerful enough. If you can't make them do something, then they would simply die. So effectively you are choosing to die.
(09:22:14 PM) Daryl[/b]: Yes, I would rather die.
(09:22:16 PM) [e-mail]: I like the 1984 way of doing things though.
(09:22:25 PM) Daryl[/b]: I have not read that book.
(09:22:47 PM) [e-mail]: The world of 1984 has a lot of the elements of what I might consider to be a perfect world, but not quite.
(09:22:58 PM) [e-mail]: In it the people who do disagree with the Party are not killed right away.
(09:23:23 PM) [e-mail]: First, they are forced to love Big Brother and the party through several years or torture, conditioning, abuse, and overwhelming manipulation.
(09:23:34 PM) Daryl[/b]: Most people consider that book to be the most unideal world imaginable
(09:23:45 PM) [e-mail]: After they have accepted Big Brother as their god, then they choose to be killed.
(09:23:52 PM) [e-mail]: For their previous sins.
(09:24:29 PM) [e-mail]: The book ends with the main character of the book being killed after he admits that he loves Big Brother and the Party.
(09:24:33 PM) Daryl[/b]: So, given that I would refuse to work for you, would you kill me?
(09:24:37 PM) [e-mail]: Yes.
(09:25:08 PM) Daryl[/b]:
(09:26:02 PM) [e-mail]: I don't know, my heroes have always been people who are uncompromising world conquerors I suppose. Not always in reality, no one has been perfect enough to conquer the world. In fiction there are a few such characters though.
(09:26:22 PM) Daryl[/b]: How about Hitler?
(09:27:15 PM) [e-mail]: Hitler killed himself eventually, as the story goes. If the Nazi regime was truly as mighty as Hitler wanted it to be, the entire world would be Nazi be now. Since it isn't, it stands as proof of his imperfection.
(09:27:50 PM) [e-mail]: Stalin had a higher kill count anyways.
(09:27:54 PM) Daryl[/b]: Hitler killed himself to avoid capture, and the entire world was very close to becoming Nazi.
(09:28:03 PM) Daryl[/b]: You base your heroes on kill count?
(09:28:14 PM) [e-mail]: No, but it's a fun fact.
(09:28:24 PM) [e-mail]: Also, the world isn't Nazi, that's what matters.
(09:28:26 PM) Daryl[/b]: It's not that fun...
(09:28:38 PM) Daryl[/b]: You're right.
(09:28:40 PM) Daryl[/b]: The world is Democratic
(09:28:48 PM) Daryl[/b]: Do you consider democracy and freedom to be the ideal system then?
(09:29:04 PM) [e-mail]: I like freedom, just not democracy.
(09:29:06 PM) Daryl[/b]: It has prevailed over dictatorship and authoritorianism
(09:29:13 PM) [e-mail]: So far, yes.
(09:29:29 PM) [e-mail]: Democracy I think still has a few bugs to work out.
(09:29:35 PM) Daryl[/b]: Dictatorships have fallen to Democracy far more often than Democracy has fallen to Dictatorship
(09:30:47 PM) [e-mail]: Dictatorship isn't perfect. To try to explain it, I think the absolutely perfect world would be where everyone had the same goals and worked together in accomplishing them, everyone had the same ideals and goals, and also where everyone was free. The thing is that everyone with their freedom would choose to do as everyone else did, there would be no dissenters to coerce into cooperation.
(09:31:10 PM) Daryl[/b]: So your ideal world doesn't involve humans.
(09:31:37 PM) [e-mail]: I think humans could like that eventually.
(09:31:42 PM) [e-mail]: At least I would hope so.
(09:31:44 PM) Daryl[/b]: They can't be.
(09:31:55 PM) [e-mail]: Sorry, I meant to put become in there.
(09:32:09 PM) [e-mail]: As in through evolution becoming more resembling of that.
(09:32:35 PM) Daryl[/b]: Artificial evolution, like what Hitler tried?
(09:32:48 PM) [e-mail]: It doesn't have to be artificial.
(09:32:56 PM) Daryl[/b]: It won't happen naturally.
(09:34:20 PM) [e-mail]: I kind of hope that in the future humans will become advanced enough to be able to all have the same mindset (or at least one that is extremely similar) over time. I think that what you can tell of people so far kind of indicates that as time forwards, human ideas tend to become more and more alike. You could take that as an indication that killing and being merciless is wrong because the majority of people don't agree with it, but I think people could change their ideas with time.
(09:34:51 PM) [e-mail]: Rather, I think human life could become so advanced that even the concept of murder would be unnecessary because no one would purposefully kill one another for any reason. No one would have to.
(09:35:21 PM) Daryl[/b]: I don't think anything like that is remotely possible with your line of thinking.
(09:35:28 PM) Daryl[/b]: Peace through chaos?
(09:35:39 PM) [e-mail]: What's wrong with chaos?
(09:36:11 PM) Daryl[/b]: I was trying to think of the word which would mean the exact opposite of peace without necessarily being war, and "chaos" came to mind
(09:36:42 PM) [e-mail]: Speaking of chaos, try to solve the Robinson's puzzle.
(09:36:54 PM) Daryl[/b]: No
(09:36:56 PM) [e-mail]: There are a few interesting things to be learnt about chaos if you figure out how to solve it.
(09:37:07 PM) [e-mail]: Because it isn't that hard once you figure the trick out.
(09:37:18 PM) Daryl[/b]: I'm doing homework right now
(09:37:22 PM) Daryl[/b]: Not puzzles
(09:37:22 PM) [e-mail]: Also I'm going to the bathroom for a while, then reading.
(09:37:24 PM) [e-mail]: Fair enough.
(09:37:30 PM) [e-mail]: I am going to start my homework soon too.
(09:59:28 PM) [e-mail]: Given what you know about my beliefs, which political affiliation do you think would suit me best?
(09:59:43 PM) Daryl[/b]: Nazi
(10:00:19 PM) [e-mail]: I don't think Nazism is that fitting of me.
(10:00:28 PM) [e-mail]: I mean, the Nazi's hated jews, blacks, and homosexuals.
(10:00:41 PM) [e-mail]: And I love homosexuality, black people, and jews. Plus I'm not Christian.
(10:00:46 PM) Daryl[/b]: That was the personal preference of NAZI's
(10:00:48 PM) Daryl[/b]: Not official stance
(10:01:06 PM) Daryl[/b]: They chose to apply their party to those
(10:01:37 PM) Daryl[/b]: You are nazi in the sense that you want homogenious society, and that you are willing to do literally anything to get it
(10:01:41 PM) Daryl[/b]: And anything to keep it
(10:02:04 PM) [e-mail]: Hmm, that is true.
(10:02:20 PM) [e-mail]: But I still don't like Nazism in the sense that they had to kill people who disagreed with them and control people through fear.
(10:02:31 PM) Daryl[/b]: But that's what you were describing earlier
(10:02:33 PM) [e-mail]: In my kind of world, everyone would want to be the same.
(10:02:42 PM) Daryl[/b]: That's what the Nazi's wanted
(10:02:52 PM) Daryl[/b]: Nazi's all thought exactly the same
(10:02:56 PM) Daryl[/b]: Not an independant thought to be found
(10:03:26 PM) [e-mail]: The ideal Nazi, yes.
(10:03:33 PM) [e-mail]: But was the applied Nazi like that?
(10:03:34 PM) Daryl[/b]: All the Nazi's
(10:03:41 PM) [e-mail]: I don't believe they were.
(10:03:41 PM) Daryl[/b]: Yes
(10:03:45 PM) Daryl[/b]: They all thought the same
(10:03:56 PM) [e-mail]: I mean, many Nazis only became Nazis because they were afraid not to be.
(10:04:11 PM) Daryl[/b]: You expressed the willingness to rule by fear earlier.
(10:06:23 PM) [e-mail]: I'd be willing to, but it wouldn't be perfect.
(10:07:23 PM) Daryl[/b]: I doubt any Nazi thought it was perfect either
(10:07:36 PM) Daryl[/b]: When I think about the world you described, I think about Nazi's

[Tex-Mex Alex A. Dex]

Oct 13, 2008 21:24:36 GMT -5 @hellomeow said:

(08:54:24 PM) [e-mail]: I don't see the wrong in any of it. All I see is the virtue in exterminating evil. The virtue in allowing people to learn.
(08:55:01 PM) Daryl

[/b]: Via murder?
(08:55:32 PM) [e-mail]: If murder is the best means to exterminate evil, then so be it.
[/quote]
mateengreenway.com/drwho/DalekTeam2.jpg

All inferior creatures are to be considered enemies of the daleks, and must be destroyed
Exterminate, EXTERMINATE

Administrator note: That image is quite large.

[Daryl]

1600x1200.

[Hauskaz]

Informed and Logical Reasoning vs Misinterpretation and Obscurity

Participants: Michael and Tyler of Brampton Centennial Secondary School (BCSS)

(12:48:53 AM) Mohamdu: Do you think I should look up songs to play/
(12:48:53 AM) Mohamdu: ?
(12:49:12 AM) Hauskaz: You can do what you want.
(12:49:18 AM) Hauskaz: It's 12:49 AM though.
(12:50:54 AM) Mohamdu: Fair enough.
(12:51:02 AM) Mohamdu: That doesn't really matter.\
(12:51:18 AM) Mohamdu: No one is ever home on the weekends here save for my brother who lives in the basement.
(12:51:51 AM) Mohamdu: He doesn't give a shit what I do.
(12:51:59 AM) Mohamdu: Hmm, do you hate Modest Mouse?
(12:52:14 AM) Hauskaz: It's that that art noise thing?
(12:52:21 AM) Mohamdu: :/ no.
(12:52:30 AM) Mohamdu: They're more like just some alternative rock band.
(12:52:47 AM) Hauskaz: I know you've shown it to me, but I forget what it sounds like.
(12:52:48 AM) Mohamdu: Two that's, nice.
(12:52:52 AM) Hauskaz: Yeah.
(12:52:54 AM) Mohamdu: No, I haven't.
(12:53:08 AM) Hauskaz: I'm pretty sure you showed me some YouTube video or something.
(12:54:30 AM) Mohamdu: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R38Pe-8l9M This is pretty much the only song by them I can say I like.
(12:54:42 AM) Mohamdu: For some reason now that I'm high, I actually really dislike this song.
(12:54:58 AM) Hauskaz: I don't like it.
(12:55:05 AM) Mohamdu: Fair enough.
(12:55:22 AM) Hauskaz: I also think you're right in that you've never shown this to me.
(12:55:34 AM) Mohamdu: What would you suggest I should try to play, I'd predict you would know more about playing music than I.
(12:56:03 AM) Hauskaz: I'm a poor musician.
(12:56:15 AM) Mohamdu: What is a musician to you?
(12:56:35 AM) Hauskaz: Someone capable of playing an instrument to an acceptable degree of proficiency.
(12:56:51 AM) Mohamdu: What separates you from being one then?
(12:57:08 AM) Hauskaz: I am a poor keyboardist and guitarist.
(12:57:17 AM) Hauskaz: I was once a decent drummer, but that is it.
(12:57:25 AM) Mohamdu: But you seem to be very good using Logic and FL.
(12:57:36 AM) Hauskaz: That would be composition.
(12:57:43 AM) Mohamdu: You seem to be easily able to detect when someone was using FL or Logic.
(12:57:54 AM) Hauskaz: That would be familiarity with both DAWs.
(12:58:06 AM) Mohamdu: What is the difference between a musician and a composer?
(12:58:32 AM) Hauskaz: A composer can write, but not necessarily play it, as is my case.
(12:58:48 AM) Mohamdu: I would think that both an instrumentalist and a composer would be considered musicians since they both create music.
(12:59:01 AM) Hauskaz: Instrumentalist would be a better word.
(12:59:28 AM) Hauskaz: I tend to think of an instrumentalist when I think of a musician though.
(1:01:47 AM) Hauskaz: In Rainbows is pretty worthless, but Radiohead's other stuff is kinda neat.
(1:02:05 AM) Hauskaz: I grabbed a whole lot of it yesterday.
(1:02:11 AM) Mohamdu: Listen to OK Computer yet?
(1:02:15 AM) Hauskaz: Yeah.
(1:02:19 AM) Mohamdu: Did you like that one?
(1:02:24 AM) Mohamdu: What about Pablo Honey?
(1:02:33 AM) Mohamdu: Or say Amnesiac?
(1:02:39 AM) Hauskaz: I'm missing their first two albums.
(1:02:42 AM) Hauskaz: I have everything else.
(1:02:45 AM) Mohamdu: Which of Kid A or Amnesiac is better?
(1:02:53 AM) Mohamdu: Fair enough.
(1:03:12 AM) Hauskaz: OK Computer is pretty neat.
(1:03:25 AM) Hauskaz: I like Kid A's electronic overtones.
(1:03:41 AM) Mohamdu: Hmm, fair enough.
(1:03:48 AM) Mohamdu: Do you like Amnesiac more or less?
(1:04:03 AM) Hauskaz: They're both fairly different.
(1:04:39 AM) Hauskaz: Amnesiac is more towards alternative rock while Kid A leans further towards art rock or even electronica.
(1:04:51 AM) Hauskaz: I'm bad with genres though.
(1:05:03 AM) Mohamdu: That's alright.
(1:05:11 AM) Mohamdu: But which would you say that you like more/
(1:05:13 AM) Mohamdu: ?
(1:05:37 AM) Hauskaz: They're different enough that I appreciate them individually.
(1:05:48 AM) Hauskaz: I don't sit and compare.
(1:05:58 AM) Hauskaz: Unless something is blantantly bad.
(1:06:05 AM) Hauskaz: blatantly*
(1:07:24 AM) Mohamdu: What's wrong with comparison?
(1:07:46 AM) Hauskaz: I tend to enjoy a lot of things, so comparison is hard.
(1:08:21 AM) Mohamdu: I don't see why that infringes on your ability to compare though, most of the time I just compare everything provided by how much I like it.
(1:08:28 AM) Hauskaz: I will say that Knives Out has this strange familiarity to it, and I particularly like it for that.
(1:08:41 AM) Mohamdu: That's because I played it for you once at my house.
(1:08:47 AM) Hauskaz: Oh rofl
(1:09:01 AM) Hauskaz: But no, it's beyond that
(1:09:11 AM) Hauskaz: as if it was part of my life in the past.
(1:09:23 AM) Mohamdu: ... it was a part of your life in the past.
(1:09:33 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps somewhere in 2001 I heard it, and it stuck.
(1:09:38 AM) Mohamdu: Hmm, so I see.
(1:09:47 AM) Mohamdu: That would be a more prominent example.
(1:10:13 AM) Hauskaz: Everything In Its Right Place gives me the same effect.
(1:10:16 AM) Mohamdu: How much would you consider your taste in music to have changed over time.
(1:10:19 AM) Hauskaz: I like songs that can evoke that.
(1:10:27 AM) Hauskaz: Oh man, it's gone everywhere.
(1:10:57 AM) Mohamdu: I think Everything Is In Its Right Place gives a feeling of being 'in utero' or something of that accord.
(1:11:21 AM) Mohamdu: The sounds are rather womb-like, from what I understand. Also, what has gone everywhere?
(1:11:31 AM) Hauskaz: Not quite.
(1:11:41 AM) Hauskaz: It just reminds me of something uncertain.
(1:11:46 AM) Hauskaz: I like songs that can do that.
(1:12:00 AM) Mohamdu: Can you name some?
(1:12:27 AM) Hauskaz: A lot of this Radiohead stuff does it, actually.
(1:12:30 AM) Hauskaz: It's pretty neat.
(1:12:41 AM) Mohamdu: How many keystrokes did you have on the laptop before?
(1:12:41 AM) Hauskaz: Idioteque is another prominent example.
(1:12:53 AM) Hauskaz: 180k, maybe.
(1:13:11 AM) Mohamdu: That song always makes me think of environmentalism and greenhouse gases.
(1:13:25 AM) Mohamdu: Or specifically, the ozone layer decomposing.
(1:13:48 AM) Hauskaz: I'm reminded of Collingwood through a dirty high-contrast filter of some sort.
(1:14:20 AM) Mohamdu: I don't know what Collingwood is like.
(1:14:20 AM) Hauskaz: Songs that bring up awkward memories or visions like that are cool.
(1:14:29 AM) Mohamdu: I never get visions from music.
(1:14:33 AM) Mohamdu: Only ideas.
(1:14:50 AM) Mohamdu: Memories just seem inexorably linked to ideas.
(1:15:10 AM) Hauskaz: Imagine thick forestry in the middle of winter, with a ski hill sinking down into a frozen coast against a deep blue clear sky.
(1:15:46 AM) Mohamdu: Interesting place, what does it look like outside of winted?
(1:15:49 AM) Mohamdu: -d+r
(1:15:56 AM) Hauskaz: I rarely visit in winter.
(1:16:05 AM) Hauskaz: Collingwood is the definition of winter to me.
(1:16:13 AM) Hauskaz: I rarely visit in summer*
(1:16:14 AM) Hauskaz: rofl
(1:16:28 AM) Mohamdu: Nice.
(1:16:42 AM) Hauskaz: The only time there isn't snow is Thanksgiving, and it's not the same then.
(1:16:47 AM) Hauskaz: It's a different place.
(1:16:58 AM) Mohamdu: Is it very high up north?
(1:16:59 AM) Hauskaz: Bonfires are made, and the leaves still persist.
(1:17:06 AM) Hauskaz: 2 hour drive north from here.
(1:17:12 AM) Mohamdu: Hmm, so I see.
(1:18:28 AM) Mohamdu: I have enjoyed some cold places, but I don't have anywhere specific to go in the winter besides my Uncle Safdar's cabin around that time.
(1:18:46 AM) Mohamdu: He shares it with his other brother, I believe, they both go hunting fairly regularly, or just hiking.
(1:19:23 AM) Mohamdu: There is also this uncle in-law I have named Paul, he is the guy who seems to know everything about forest hiking, but he also completely lacks any ability to fertilize children.
(1:20:10 AM) Hauskaz: Steely Dan also evicts the memory effect thing.
(1:20:19 AM) Hauskaz: Particularly Gaucho and Aja.
(1:20:48 AM) Mohamdu: I'm pretty sure I never experience any such memory effect.
(1:20:51 AM) Hauskaz: They differ in that they're often not mine.
(1:20:55 AM) Hauskaz: They feel like Lex's.
(1:22:13 AM) Mohamdu: Hmm, I think that memories may be transferred genetically, but I doubt it on the whole. Richard Dawkin's theory of memes still seems a bit skeptical to me that memories or ideas could be transferred genetically either through culture or just through routines that the gene adapts to, but I doubt it would have that much effect on what people remember.
(1:22:38 AM) Hauskaz: That's the idea Assassin's Creed plays on.
(1:22:56 AM) Hauskaz: I doubt what I think of is accurate at all, but the visions still come up anyways.
(1:23:03 AM) Hauskaz: This is why I like music.
(1:23:20 AM) Hauskaz: It pulls me out of the real world and places me in a different one.
(1:23:48 AM) Mohamdu: If you ask me, anything is real provided you can think it.
(1:24:12 AM) Hauskaz: It pulls me out of the physical one, then.
(1:24:31 AM) Mohamdu: You might say that fiction is a world created by man, but what separates it from being something that God created? It is just the means that things are created, and the levels of thinking on which they would manifest.
(1:24:40 AM) Mohamdu: It's a lot like asking yourself if love is real.
(1:25:05 AM) Mohamdu: Love could be a creation of man's progress, and perceived beyond the physical. But is it any less real when view at from a certain point?
(1:25:12 AM) Mohamdu: *when in
(1:25:30 AM) Mohamdu: I don't know, I'm kind of thinking of this like recursive processes.
(1:25:51 AM) Hauskaz: I guess I somewhat see your point.
(1:25:57 AM) Mohamdu: Really?
(1:26:32 AM) Hauskaz: To a degree, although I don't much think for the underlying things behind everything.
(1:26:41 AM) Hauskaz: I just sit in the moment and believe what I want to.
(1:27:26 AM) Hauskaz: The mu major chord must have been a part of my life at one point.
(1:27:53 AM) Mohamdu: I don't think about things as much as I just study them and find whatever seems to most apparent or logical to me, kind of like scraping away things with Occam's Razor. I assume you're familiar with it, I always think that everything can be explained in one way or another once you find the clues.
(1:28:11 AM) Mohamdu: And once you find the clues, you can prove their right. And then you know exactly what to believe.
(1:28:23 AM) Mohamdu: *they're, rofl
(1:28:51 AM) Mohamdu: Error is probably one of the most interesting things to me, it's at the very core of what forms thoughts, creativity, and conscious cognition.
(1:29:02 AM) Mohamdu: The more mistakes anything makes, the more intelligent it is.
(1:30:23 AM) Hauskaz: Hm, what other songs do I have that evoke this...
(1:30:56 AM) Hauskaz: Spectral Mornings.
(1:31:02 AM) Hauskaz: The entire album.
(1:31:40 AM) Mohamdu: Does it feel like I'm ignoring you?
(1:32:10 AM) Hauskaz: I'm in somewhat of a daze.
(1:32:13 AM) Hauskaz: It matters not.
(1:32:34 AM) Mohamdu: That doesn't answer the question though.
(1:33:11 AM) Hauskaz: It doesn't matter, I'm here.
(1:33:14 AM) Hauskaz: Or I think I am.
(1:33:19 AM) Hauskaz: I'm unsure.
(1:33:21 AM) Hauskaz: Am I here?
(1:33:38 AM) Mohamdu: Why won't you answer the question?
(1:34:01 AM) Hauskaz: I don't much care for the question.
(1:34:05 AM) Hauskaz: It is irrelevant.
(1:34:31 AM) Mohamdu: So by saying that it doesn't matter, it's the equivalent of saying you are not going to answer the question?
(1:34:53 AM) Hauskaz: I don't think it equates like that.
(1:35:01 AM) Hauskaz: I'm not sure how it does.
(1:35:11 AM) Mohamdu: So are you going to answer the question or not?
(1:35:16 AM) Hauskaz: The state I am currently in is so enjoyable.
(1:35:26 AM) Hauskaz: Tired, but placed in a reminiscent trance.
(1:35:37 AM) Hauskaz: I'm making no sense.
(1:35:47 AM) Mohamdu: Is this what trolling is?
(1:35:58 AM) Hauskaz: I'm not in a state to troll.
(1:36:01 AM) Mohamdu: Your vocabulary seems radically different from a lot of people's that I know.
(1:36:09 AM) Hauskaz: It is unintentional.
(1:36:36 AM) Mohamdu: Are you doing anything besides listening to music?
(1:36:44 AM) Hauskaz: I favour large words, but it is towards my own satisfaction.
(1:36:54 AM) Mohamdu: No, I mean in terms of how you define words.
(1:37:10 AM) Mohamdu: Your vocabulary's diversity is fine, just the way that you define things.
(1:37:22 AM) Mohamdu: That's the only thing that really confuses me about you.
(1:37:39 AM) Hauskaz: My dictionary differs, perhaps.
(1:37:54 AM) Mohamdu: But why not standardize dictions of words?
(1:38:10 AM) Mohamdu: It would make linguistics in general so much simpler to understand.
(1:38:31 AM) Mohamdu: Not necessarily languages, just the dictionaries and lexicons that compose them.
(1:38:32 AM) Hauskaz: But there is no fun in such a practice.
(1:38:52 AM) Mohamdu: But if you standardize dictions people communicate much easier.
(1:39:31 AM) Mohamdu: People learn things much easier that way. I don't quite understand the idea of being creative so much as I grasp the concept of being resourceful.
(1:39:43 AM) Hauskaz: The harder it is, the more that is left for misinterpretation.
(1:39:49 AM) Mohamdu: How so?
(1:40:14 AM) Hauskaz: Take a look at Shakespeare, and the many different ways it can be interpreted.
(1:40:26 AM) Hauskaz: How one set of text can vary so wildly without changing itself.
(1:40:40 AM) Hauskaz: That is something I love.
(1:40:57 AM) Hauskaz: Music is just the same.
(1:41:10 AM) Hauskaz: Everyone has their own interpretation of what they hear.
(1:41:18 AM) Mohamdu: I don't like the idea of things changing, I prefer things to simply be able to show other things.
(1:41:38 AM) Mohamdu: That's really all that I demand any action does, on the whole.
(1:41:40 AM) Hauskaz: Life is dull when clear cut.
(1:41:59 AM) Mohamdu: It's odd that you say it like that, the more clear things are the more I seem to enjoy them.
(1:42:03 AM) Hauskaz: The foggy dirt trail is more inviting than the highway.
(1:42:10 AM) Mohamdu: I'm an extremely linear thinker.
(1:42:25 AM) Mohamdu: I don't think people can even fully grasp how linear I see things.
(1:42:40 AM) Mohamdu: It's so much easier to be able to break everything into subsets of other things.
(1:42:42 AM) Hauskaz: I believe I think much better when I don't.
(1:43:17 AM) Hauskaz: For the past good while since placing these headphones upon my ears, I've been typing every immediate thought without consideration.
(1:43:32 AM) Mohamdu: It seems pretty apparent.
(1:43:40 AM) Hauskaz: Raw, unprocessed.
(1:44:17 AM) Hauskaz: In its unrefined state, it is perhaps hard to judge what is being said.
(1:44:26 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps nothing is.
(1:44:41 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps there's several meanings and definitions behind it all.
(1:45:14 AM) Hauskaz: In this state, I could possibly write brilliant poetry, but I am not a verse writer.
(1:45:20 AM) Hauskaz: I keep my thoughts in prose.
(1:45:49 AM) Hauskaz: My mind has no rhythm other than that which it is subjected to.
(1:46:00 AM) Mohamdu: To me I don't think of refining things as making them cleaner, or separating; for me it is more akin to seeing from a different point. Everything you can judge is based on perspective. That's part of the reason I like to think that there are infinitely many expressions for anything that a person could think of.
(1:46:09 AM) Mohamdu: And all of them are as real as the next.
(1:46:15 AM) Mohamdu: The real trick then is just seeing them.
(1:46:36 AM) Mohamdu: That's the crux of genius to me, the ability to see varying expressions.
(1:46:44 AM) Hauskaz: Point of view is vital.
(1:47:07 AM) Hauskaz: It is the whole basis behind everything I've been talking about.
(1:47:17 AM) Hauskaz: At least that is my interpretation.
(1:47:27 AM) Mohamdu: Why don't you try just writing down anything you are thinking of? Poetry does not necessarily have to rhyme.
(1:47:59 AM) Hauskaz: The last hour has not rhymed, but perhaps it could be interpreted as poetry.
(1:48:06 AM) Mohamdu: It's why I think of myself as being very uncreative, it's the sign of complete unintelligence.
(1:48:12 AM) Hauskaz: It would be dependent upon definition.
(1:48:27 AM) Mohamdu: Theres no such thing as uncreative intelligence, if you ask me.
(1:48:56 AM) Mohamdu: Intelligence goes beyond calculating, it is an act of forming concepts and connecting them rapidly in junction with much simpler basis process.
(1:49:12 AM) Hauskaz: I've thought myself uncreative, but I've made the realization that it exists at this most basic state.
(1:49:23 AM) Mohamdu: It involves such non-sequitur line of thought that it will take years before true intelligence could be created.
(1:49:32 AM) Hauskaz: Unconnected ideas flowing as they feel.
(1:49:38 AM) Mohamdu: Intelligence is very non-sequitur.
(1:49:43 AM) Mohamdu: I seem to completely lack that ability.
(1:49:53 AM) Hauskaz: In a higher state, they could be connected, placed together, manipulated.
(1:49:54 AM) Mohamdu: That is part of my anger against the concept of not being able to do something.
(1:50:03 AM) Hauskaz: As of this moment, they simply exist.
(1:50:18 AM) Hauskaz: I guess I see now why some may find inspiration in recreational drugs.
(1:50:23 AM) Mohamdu: It's a very Godelian sort of crutch to be caught in together with the inability to do something..
(1:50:46 AM) Mohamdu: It proves that infinite possibilities do exist, you just have to reach out into infinity to find them all, which is completely unattainable.
(1:51:06 AM) Mohamdu: I don't find inspiration in drugs.
(1:51:12 AM) Mohamdu: Right now, I should be stoned.
(1:51:27 AM) Hauskaz: I may as well be considered dead.
(1:51:29 AM) Mohamdu: I ate a large portion of marijuana, but I still don't feel very creative.
(1:51:57 AM) Mohamdu: I'm really a sort of one trick pony on the whole.
(1:52:02 AM) Hauskaz: I exist in this chair, but Tyler's general state of mind lacks a presence.
(1:52:39 AM) Hauskaz: Upon its departure it carries the censor.
(1:52:51 AM) Hauskaz: The floodgate is opened for all to flow.
(1:53:16 AM) Hauskaz: What it is that flows, I have not an idea.
(1:53:25 AM) Hauskaz: Water, wine, sewage.
(1:54:01 AM) Hauskaz: The substance behind it all is questionable.
(1:55:08 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps it's all a huge trolling, but the troll would drown first if the river ever rose.
(1:55:31 AM) Hauskaz: Better shelter could be sought out.
(1:56:10 AM) Hauskaz: To that effect, it would be a troll no longer.
(1:56:32 AM) Hauskaz: Rather, a figure integrated to the neighbouring town society.
(1:56:56 AM) Hauskaz: And in doing so, the bridge is safe to cross.
(1:57:19 AM) Hauskaz: But, it makes not any sense.
(1:57:43 AM) Hauskaz: The scenario is nonsensical.
(1:58:38 AM) Hauskaz: At least I see it as nonsensical.
(1:58:52 AM) Hauskaz: One may find substance in the overflowing river.
(1:59:42 AM) Hauskaz: I quite enjoy the way this monitor is both zooming towards and away from me at the same time.
(1:59:57 AM) Hauskaz: My mind is split over the abuse of this portal.
(2:00:14 AM) Hauskaz: Fatigue is the ultimate drug.
(2:00:40 AM) Hauskaz: Sleep just ends it.
(2:00:43 AM) Hauskaz: It's not needed.
(2:01:30 AM) Hauskaz: Sleep only returns you to the realm of normality when all is done.
(2:01:34 AM) Hauskaz: It is the orgasm of life.
(2:02:07 AM) Hauskaz: And yet, the temptation haunts all.
(2:02:24 AM) Hauskaz: Danny would be a huge addict of sleep.
(2:02:59 AM) Hauskaz: Sleep has its physical benefits, but to deprive yourself of them brings about its own effects.
(2:03:44 AM) Hauskaz: I see not how Samantha may log in and out without particular reason.
(2:04:08 AM) Hauskaz: Yet it is the only thing I notice with any rationality.
(2:04:16 AM) Hauskaz: All else simply exists.
(2:04:41 AM) Hauskaz: The significance of the event is questionable.
(2:05:12 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps her presence has caused it, perhaps the presence of something else caused it.
(2:05:45 AM) Hauskaz: I could easily answer this question by placing a message, but that would close the case much too easily.
(2:06:54 AM) Hauskaz: By idling placing my own bet upon the table, the game is made sweeter.
(2:07:57 AM) Hauskaz: I've interpreted it one way, and perhaps someone else may have seen different.
(2:08:08 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps someone else took the easy way out.
(2:08:54 AM) Hauskaz: Tyler would say that he's making no sense at this point and stop trolling already, but Tyler's in Tachai.
(2:09:10 AM) Hauskaz: The Red Flower of Tachai Blooms Everywhere.
(2:09:15 AM) Hauskaz: It is beautiful.
(2:09:29 AM) Hauskaz: Oh, what a sight it is to see.
(2:10:03 AM) Hauskaz: So rarely observed but ever dependable.
(2:10:19 AM) Hauskaz: I can see why Tyler would enjoy it.
(2:10:35 AM) Hauskaz: Tyler needs something to trust.
(2:11:24 AM) Hauskaz: Tyler likes Samantha for such a reason.
(2:12:46 AM) Hauskaz: Two people, as corrupted as they may appear upon the exterior, but hide an honesty and purity.
(2:13:37 AM) Hauskaz: A trust based on knowing the inside cannot be violated.
(2:14:09 AM) Hauskaz: Shed a tear at the thought, Tyler.
(2:14:14 AM) Hauskaz: Luck favours you.
(2:15:37 AM) Hauskaz: You will return and once again take dominance of the flow.
(2:15:50 AM) Hauskaz: Direct it, channel it, collect it.
(2:16:29 AM) Hauskaz: I'm sure Tyler will be furious upon discovering his flooded mess.
(2:16:48 AM) Hauskaz: But he's just to blame.
(2:16:54 AM) Hauskaz: Poor, poor Tyler.
(2:17:11 AM) Hauskaz: A thought that was cut short.
(2:17:18 AM) Hauskaz: Michael still persists.
(2:17:45 AM) Hauskaz: Persists in spite of what does not upon the other end of this cable.
(2:18:11 AM) Hauskaz: The almighty cable.
(2:18:34 AM) Hauskaz: All are connected.
(2:18:50 AM) Hauskaz: It is an amazing feat, but one that is perhaps abused.
(2:19:18 AM) Hauskaz: Gone are the days of anticipation.
(2:19:25 AM) Hauskaz: Everything is immediate.
(2:19:42 AM) Hauskaz: No wonder ADHD is so commonplace.
(2:20:51 AM) Hauskaz: Thoughts continue to retreat, perhaps in the fear of impeding the freight train that comes towards them.
(2:21:06 AM) Hauskaz: Is Mohamdu typing?
(2:21:42 AM) Hauskaz: It is what Microsoft's established textual conversation protocol indicates, but I see not a result.
(2:22:29 AM) Hauskaz: Established procedures cannot withhold human interaction.
(2:22:58 AM) Hauskaz: Tyler should tell me that makes no sense whatsoever.
(2:23:16 AM) Hauskaz: His own recreation is his own loss.
(2:24:38 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps he will find his lack of self humourous though.
(2:25:15 AM) Hauskaz: Perhaps the likes of XF will bear witness the unmonitored reveries of his mind.
(2:25:40 AM) Hauskaz: Tyler loves that kind of awkward gratification.
(2:25:48 AM) Hauskaz: He's a pretty hard person to describe.
(2:26:18 AM) Hauskaz: Do you feel like you are being ignored?
(2:26:45 AM) Hauskaz: I never did answer that question, did I.
(2:26:59 AM) Hauskaz: And yet I turn it around an hour later.
(2:28:52 AM) Hauskaz: Everything, in it's right place.
(2:29:01 AM) Hauskaz: So funny, nothing is.
(2:29:38 AM) Hauskaz: The channels that would systematically place all in its correct position are gone.
(2:30:36 AM) Hauskaz: Oh, how it would be neat to define things with a number.
(2:31:04 AM) Hauskaz: Numbers exist all around us, yet they can not always fulfill our purpose.
(2:31:32 AM) Hauskaz: They exist as a convenience when we want them.
(2:31:43 AM) Hauskaz: Sometimes that convenience is not afforded.
(2:31:51 AM) Hauskaz: [-,0,0]
(2:32:09 AM) Hauskaz: There is no anger, no fear.
(2:32:35 AM) Hauskaz: Numbers can define the simple, but the rest is utter mystery.
(2:33:23 AM) Hauskaz: Tyler is sitting in the car as it glides silently towards the cold landscape of Collingwood.
(2:33:28 AM) Hauskaz: How is he feeling?
(2:34:05 AM) Hauskaz: I could phone him, but he doesn't carry a cell phone.
(2:35:00 AM) Hauskaz: Let's leave it to mystery.
(2:35:13 AM) Hauskaz: The uncertainties of life make it interesting.
(2:36:45 AM) Hauskaz: I could make the assumption he is at peace, but that is only an estimation.
(2:37:08 AM) Hauskaz: I think I may miss Tyler.
(2:37:19 AM) Hauskaz: He would alert me that I am overdosing.
(2:38:07 AM) Hauskaz: I'm wrecking myself, and he's not here to stop me.
(2:38:12 AM) Hauskaz: I must stop myself.
(2:38:40 AM) Hauskaz: The liquid crystal gateway has a split opinion.
(2:39:01 AM) Hauskaz: It cuts at me sharply, and invites.
(2:39:39 AM) Hauskaz: And then there's the sticky note.
(2:40:01 AM) Hauskaz: McDonalds
Tues 5:40
Kingspoint
Main
Vodden
(2:40:18 AM) Hauskaz: A little reminder of what Tyler would be doing if he were here.
(2:40:22 AM) Hauskaz: I miss him.
(2:41:25 AM) Hauskaz: He'd tell me to restrain.
(2:43:14 AM) Hauskaz: And yet, as everything fades, he's almost here, urging what I had hoped to hear.
(2:43:48 AM) Hauskaz: I should heed his advice.
(2:43:55 AM) Hauskaz: He knows what he's doing.
(2:46:43 AM) Hauskaz: His advice has been followed, but one point of his remains.
(2:47:12 AM) Hauskaz: There exists a cushioned escape, where all will return normal.
(2:47:28 AM) Hauskaz: Apparently I should seek it.
(2:47:51 AM) Hauskaz: I don't know if I favour it, but they are his words.
(2:48:27 AM) Hauskaz: I think I must surrender to his control.
(2:49:48 AM) Hauskaz: He knows best.